Should Sakurai be removed from the series?

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Well, what do you think?

I'm starting to think it might be a good idea. This game alone seems like it represents Kid Icarus and Kirby just a bit too much, and that Nintendo is hurting the series by letting Sakurai include stuff from his own games at the expense of others...

But what do you think?
 
Uhm, no. Anyone else would screw it up.

I understand what you mean about Kid Icarus, but Kirby? There's the exact same amount of Kirby in this game as there was in Brawl, and personally I feel like Kirby doesn't really need justification.
 
Uhm, no. Anyone else would screw it up.


Yeah, I don't think anyone else could make it better.
The series is fine in his hands.
 
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I'm also going to disagree.  There would have been a proper amount of Kid Icarus in it if there wasn't Dark Pit (who is the most clone-y clone in the new game)…if you're looking at Smash Run having a lot of KI:U and Kirby enemies, it makes a lot of sense if you really think about it.  KI:U was an action game with a widely diverse pool of enemies.  If you need a lot of enemies for a mode like Smash Run, it's very easy to pull from games like that.  Kirby is an adventure game where (almost) every enemy gives you a unique ability, so once again there's a large pool of characters to draw into a mode with a lot of enemies.  Mario, Zelda, Metroid…they all have a good amount of representation in Smash Run as well…Zelda I think has the least of those simply because a lot of the enemies would be redundant (we don't need both Stalfos and Wolfos when they're fought practically the same way).  Pikmin, Mega Man, Donkey Kong, and the rest, round out the Smash Run enemy crew, and I really do feel that he did a great job on making that mode feel like anything from any series can show up.

Looking also at assist trophies…KI got two: Magnus and Phosphora.  Kirby (to my knowledge anyway) only remained having Knuckle Joe.  Hardly "too much representation" from those two, especially when Sakurai could have easily taken far more of the end stage bosses from KI:U and thrown them in.  Zelda has three: Midna, Girahim, and Skull Kid…that's equal to the two 'problem' series combined.

Normal trophies again we don't have an issue.  With roughly 700 trophies and three characters from both series in the game, it makes sense that they'd get more trophies dedicated to their series than some others…I mean, do we really need all the Mega Man Robot Masters as trophies?  Every Pokemon in existence?  I don't see it as a problem here.

Also, as the others have stated, Sakurai has done a fantastic job making a series that practically everyone enjoys on some level, and I don't think taking him off the series would be a good choice at all, especially not for this perceived 'issue'
 
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I'm mad that there was a character wasted on Dark Pit. I mean don't get me wrong I like Dark Pit, but that would have worked better as an alternate costume for Pit. I felt the same way about Mario in SSBB. I mean people complained about a lacking of Dr. Mario, but really all you have to do is make an alt costume for Mario, which I'm surprised they didn't do seeing as a lot people wanted Dr. Mario back. Plus it's not like a huge change was an issue seeing as there's 6 different AC Villagers and Olimar turns into a whole different character. So having Mario look and play like Dr. Mario shouldn't have been too hard, but hey I'm not too butt hurt about it. I rarely use Mario or Dr. Mario in Melee anyway.
 
He should work on the series but he shouldn't be the only one deciding which content gets put in the game.
Someone should keep his biased decisions in check.
3 characters for a series that has only recently been rebooted is too much.
Then if you look at the number of kid icarus trophies and smash run enemies you can clearly see that he's favouring his own game.

Smash Bros is not an ad for your game, Sakurai.
 
3 characters for a series that has only recently been rebooted is too much.
Then if you look at the number of kid icarus trophies and smash run enemies you can clearly see that he's favouring his own game.

Smash Bros is not an ad for your game, Sakurai.


Pit was in Brawl.  Palutena is a legitimate newcomer, and Dark Pit is a clone.  How is this any more of a 'problem' than Fire Emblem getting two characters, who were clones, in Melee when they hadn't had any representation before?  Don't get me wrong, I love Marth/Roy from Melee, but my point is you can't legitimately complain that three characters from a recently rebooted series is too much when it's one vet, a clone of said vet, and a newcomer.  Am I thrilled that Dark Pit is in there?  No, I'm with DYL there that a reskin would've been a smarter choice.  However, one newcomer is hardly too much representation.  That's the same amount as Punch Out, which had its only recent game long before KI:U showed up.

As for Smash Run, I hold to the fact that the way KI:U plays it makes sense that we'd get a lot of its enemies showing up.  KI:U plays as a fast paced action game where oftentimes destroying your enemies is the only real option.  Smash Run…a fast paced action game where destroying your enemies gives you stat boosts, so you most often want to fight them.  See the connection here?  Take that as opposed to something like Fire Emblem, which has more representation in the character list than Kid Icarus…you can't exactly easily translate a turn based strategy game into an action game, especially not when the majority of the enemies are human.  Therefore, it makes sense that games where fighting in a somewhat similar style (KI, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc) will get the majority of the representation.

Trophies, taking out all the KI trophies that appear elsewhere in the game (fighters, assist trophies, smash run enemies, items, etc) you get 14.  (Note, I don't have all the trophies yet, but with 614 I can say with confidence I have most of 'em).  Zelda I count 21 that have no affiliation with the rest of the game.  Hardly an overabundance of KI trophies.
 
Pit was in Brawl.  Palutena is a legitimate newcomer, and Dark Pit is a clone.  How is this any more of a 'problem' than Fire Emblem getting two characters, who were clones, in Melee when they hadn't had any representation before?  Don't get me wrong, I love Marth/Roy from Melee, but my point is you can't legitimately complain that three characters from a recently rebooted series is too much when it's one vet, a clone of said vet, and a newcomer.  Am I thrilled that Dark Pit is in there?  No, I'm with DYL there that a reskin would've been a smarter choice.  However, one newcomer is hardly too much representation.  That's the same amount as Punch Out, which had its only recent game long before KI:U showed up.

As for Smash Run, I hold to the fact that the way KI:U plays it makes sense that we'd get a lot of its enemies showing up.  KI:U plays as a fast paced action game where oftentimes destroying your enemies is the only real option.  Smash Run…a fast paced action game where destroying your enemies gives you stat boosts, so you most often want to fight them.  See the connection here?  Take that as opposed to something like Fire Emblem, which has more representation in the character list than Kid Icarus…you can't exactly easily translate a turn based strategy game into an action game, especially not when the majority of the enemies are human.  Therefore, it makes sense that games where fighting in a somewhat similar style (KI, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc) will get the majority of the representation.

Trophies, taking out all the KI trophies that appear elsewhere in the game (fighters, assist trophies, smash run enemies, items, etc) you get 14.  (Note, I don't have all the trophies yet, but with 614 I can say with confidence I have most of 'em).  Zelda I count 21 that have no affiliation with the rest of the game.  Hardly an overabundance of KI trophies.


First off, I'm not complaining. I am criticizing. ;)
I'm not mad at the game, just a bit disappointed in some aspects.
?

Does it really make that much of a difference whether it's a returning character, a newcomer or a clone? It's a slot that could've been used to give some representation to another series.
And yeah, to me 4 fire emblem characters is worse than 3 kid icarus ones.

The thing is, I don't care for fire emblem. I haven't played the games. I don't know whether the series is great enough to deserve 4 characters or not.
But I am familiar with Kid icarus and I don't think it even deserves 3 characters.
Or... let me put it this way:

If Kid Icarus deserves 3 characters (clones or not) then other series (like Donkey Kong for example) also highly deserve 3 characters.

And Wario would deserve to be split into 2 characters (classic and biker) with 2 seperate movesets.
Wario would deserve more representation in general. Just like in Brawl he didn't get a single new trophy made for him. Just what's already in the game.

And they made trophies for all kinds of obscure games...
Seriously, you can't tell me this game deserves an assist trophy but Wario Land doesn't even deserve a regular trophy!

220px-Kaerubox2.PNG


But I digress.




As for Smash Run...



There are plenty of enemies from other franchises that would've worked perfectly well in smash run.
(Again, take Wario Land/World for example. Those enemies can move fast, are easy to model and animate, and they wouldn't feel out of place at all.)
?
 
Does it really make that much of a difference whether it's a returning character, a newcomer or a clone? It's a slot that could've been used to give some representation to another series.


Kid Icarus is a franchise that was rebooted after ~25 years.  KI:U has, according to vgchartz, sold over a million copies.  Not a lot when you look at other, more popular franchises, but for a series that's been literally dead for over two decades?  That's really impressive.  Really, really impressive.  Thus, it makes sense that there should be more representation in the Smash Bros lineup for that series.  Note, again, I completely agree Dark Pit should not be in the game.  Out of all the clones he has the least amount of difference between him and his normal character…all others have legitimate differences (Lucina has equal strength all along her blade, but it's less powerful than Marth's sword tip, Dr. Mario being more powerful than Mario at the cost of jump and speed, etc.)  However, if we excuse the clone, that's one new character.  Surely that's not asking too much for a series that has just recently come back from the grave, and in a rather successful way?



And yeah, to me 4 fire emblem characters is worse than 3 kid icarus ones.

The thing is, I don't care for fire emblem. I haven't played the games. I don't know whether the series is great enough to deserve 4 characters or not.
But I am familiar with Kid icarus and I don't think it even deserves 3 characters.
Or... let me put it this way:

If Kid Icarus deserves 3 characters (clones or not) then other series (like Donkey Kong for example) also highly deserve 3 characters.


Fire Emblem is one of the longest running series that Nintendo has to offer…unfortunately for us in the Western World most of them haven't seen the light of day outside of Japan, excluding non-official emulations or other such ways of getting them.  It's finally seeing the recognition it deserves in the rest of the world, with Awakening gaining the largest following yet.  I've been a fan of the series since what we in the Western World call "Fire Emblem", which was really the SEVENTH Fire Emblem game created, but was the first one released outside of Japan…it has a rich history, and with Awakening being the most popular world wide, it made sense for them to bring the series more love.  Looking at it from an unbiased perspective, four characters does seem a bit much, until you realize the series has been around since 1990 and likely has more characters than any other single Nintendo franchise.

Let's look at the difference between including three Donkey Kong characters and three Kid Icarus characters...

Donkey Kong as a franchise has kind of fallen off recently, with only the recent return to the DK Country games to bring it any love anymore.  Of these, are there any truly iconic characters that work as fighters outside of DK and Diddy EXCLUDING those who haven't seen the light of day since the days of DK64, such as Chunky Kong and Lanky Kong?  Dixie doesn't work except as a possible clone of Diddy (and then I'd be arguing against her instead of Dark Pit), Cranky isn't a fighter, nor is Candy…it just doesn't work.  K Rool?  Maybe, but look at how much the series has fallen off in the past 15 years or so…it's far less practical to include a character many people don't know about anymore (not counting those of us who've been around for years) than someone they do.  Now, look at the KI lineup in the new Smash.  We have Pit, the returning fighter from Brawl.  We have Palutena, who appeared both in Brawl's Subspace Emissary mode and in Pit's Final Smash, and who returned in a game that got really good reception for being the first one of its franchise in over two decades.  Then we have Dark Pit, who I won't justify being in the game.  Which makes more sense?  If K Rool had been at all represented in Brawl or anything other than Barrel Blast since 2007 I'd agree he should be around, but it just doesn't make sense to throw him in when it's been a while since he's reprised his actual role as villain.  It'd be like throwing in Onox or Veran from the Oracle Game Boy Color Zelda games…fans of those games (like me) would love it, but it wouldn't be the most popular choice.



And Wario would deserve to be split into 2 characters (classic and biker) with 2 seperate movesets.

Wario would deserve more representation in general. Just like in Brawl he didn't get a single new trophy made for him. Just what's already in the game.

And they made trophies for all kinds of obscure games...
Seriously, you can't tell me this game deserves an assist trophy but Wario Land doesn't even deserve a regular trophy!

220px-Kaerubox2.PNG


But I digress.


Now you're contradicting yourself.  You claim to be against clones/unworthy series representation, but Wario deserves to be in there twice?  Wario hasn't had a game about him aside from the Wario Ware (good series) games (and excluding the decidedly 'meh' Wario Land: Shake It!) since Wario World I'm fairly certain.  Expecting him to show up as two different characters, one based around his Micro-game era, another around his old persona, is asking a bit much.  I know you can point at Mario/Dr. Mario as an example, but unfortunately I believe a large reason the M.D. version returned was because a lot of people were upset he wasn't in Brawl for some reason.  Smash characters are chosen for one of two reasons:  Paying homage to a series that's run its course but is a large part of Nintendo's history (Duck Hunt, ROB, Ness, Ice Climbers) or to represent a series that is a large part of the reason Nintendo is still popular today.  Classic Wario is neither of these.  The Wario Land/World era was good, I agree with you, but it wasn't the most popular series of games, and so it makes sense to me that both Warios wouldn't appear.  Besides, classic era Wario would play a lot like a slow Little Mac based around his Wario World persona more than likely, and there'd be an outcry of him emulating the Captain Falcon/Ganondorf cloning.

You're complaining about Wario getting no new representation?  I'm sure Ashley would disagree…and Brawl brought Kat and Ana into the mix.  Also, as for your complaining that obscure series got representation, don't make the logical fallacy that Nintendo exists purely to supply service to the Western World.  Odds are that game was really popular in Japan, so they threw it in for them.  It's just like Tingle's Rupee Land was popular over there…the majority of the Western World wouldn't enjoy it, but Japan did…and surely they deserve to receive tribute for their favorites as well?



There are plenty of enemies from other franchises that would've worked perfectly well in smash run.

(Again, take Wario Land/World for example. Those enemies can move fast, are easy to model and animate, and they wouldn't feel out of place at all.)


Excluding Wario Land: Shake It! (which didn't feel much like it belonged in the franchise IMO) Wario Land's been dead since 2001, and Wario World came out in 2003.  Neither was super popular compared to other old series that we see have enemies in Smash Run (Ocarina of Time's Redeads and Stalfos, etc).  KI:U came out two years ago.  If you had to pick a series to have characters from, which would you pick?  Smash Bros sells because it's a representation of the best Nintendo has to offer, and trying to revive a dead series without reason wouldn't help them any.

It sounds like, and your signature helps me feel this way, that you're mostly angry that Wario didn't get more representation.  Everyone isn't happy about something done in Smash.  Personally I'm miffed that Ghirahim is only an assist trophy (and a fairly crappy one at that) and that Metroid didn't get any extra representation (even if not Ridley, why not another hunter from MP: Hunters or MP3?).  However, blaming Sakurai for making an intelligent business decision to include more characters from a game that came out recently and is still in stores to try to garner more attention both to it and Smash Bros simply because you aren't happy with the results isn't fair to him.
 
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It wouldn't feel like Smash Bros. if Sakurai didn't make future games. Sure some people might have little complains on minor details and the roster has some characters that might seem like they don't need to be on there but I think since Sora worked on SSB4 they deserve to have a little more representation for KIU which is what they did. The Kirby representation was just about right too. The DKC series characters such as the Kremlings and Tikis are both in there aren't they? Sure it was a great series but it was only like 5 games excluding ports? Definitely Wario needed more representation but I guess more people care about a little trivia and obscurity too with characters like R.O.B. and the Duck Hunt Duo than some parody of Super Mario Land 2 or Metroid.

I guess representation is in the well thought out trophy descriptions.

Oh and Palutena and Pit were in the first two original games so you could say the one game Dark Pit is in represents KIU or just an alter ego of the new Pit. Brawl sort of just had Pit but that was so the younger audience would know who he really is before the reboot that must've been planned since Brawl's creation. (If only these thoughts would come to mind when putting the Mother/EB characters in since HAL was a part of that series.)
 
...look at how much the series has fallen off in the past 15 years or so...


Yeah, you're right...

...if you're ignoring these two masterpieces! :grin:

_-Donkey-Kong-Country-Returns-Wii-_.jpg
WiiU_DonkeyKongCountryTropicalFreeze_BoxArt.jpg


You can't tell me these two aren't significant for the series. :p

Dixie Kong would only be a clone of you made her one. Give her her own moveset and she'd be set.
And if Cranky can do platforming and beat up enemies in Tropical Freeze the way Donkey can then he can be a Smash fighter too. ^^

Concerning Wario:
Giving him 2 versions with each their own moveset is not cloning. It's the opposite.
Either way, I didn't "expect" them to do that. All I was saying is that it would've been a way to please both the fans of Wario's WarioWare moveset and those who have been wanting his signature moves from Wario Land back. They could've also done that with the custom moves but apparently that was too much effort for them.
To me Wario is just not Wario without his shoulder charge. In Brawl the move didn't work the way it did in the games but at least it was in there. In Smash 4 they removed it entirely and replaced it with a random punch for no reason whatsoever. >_>

When Brawl came out Wario Land was about to be rebooted with Shake it (btw, I don't think that game was meh. It was pretty good, just not as excellent as Wario Land 4 for example)
so they could've done what they did with Pit and used Brawl as a promotion for his next game and his (sort-of) comeback. Maybe then it would've been more successful.

They already knew about Shake it since they used that game's first level theme as his victory tune.

And he wouldn't have been a clone either!
Just look at Project M's Wario. He's pretty much perfect.




You're complaining about Wario getting no new representation?  I'm sure Ashley would disagree…and Brawl brought Kat and Ana into the mix.


You don't get my point. WarioWare got plenty of representation. No issue there.
But Wario LAND got close to none.

Wait, lemme explain where I'm coming from....

Wario Land has had 5 well known games, all of which ranging from good to excellend. Even the lesser known one on the Virtual Boy was good! (its only flaw being the virtual boy itself. Heck, it was even the only good game on that system!)
Then, it had two spin-off platformers. One good and one not as good.
None of these games were outright bad or anything. All of them are unique, fun and high quality games.
And now 4 of them have been released on Virtual Console!
So it's not like they have fallen that far into obscurity.

But that's not the only reason I think the series should be represented.
Think about it:
Just like you said earlier, characters like Duck Hunt Duo, ROB, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game&Watch have all been added for their historical significance.
Well, without Wario Land Wario would've never become the break-out character that he is today. He would've never appeared in the sports, party and racing games as a reoccurring playable character, he would've never been used as a mascot for Wario Ware inc. and of course he wouldn't be a fighter in Smash today.

Instead he would've become just another forgotten one-note villain like Wart or Tatanga.
So in short:

If the "oldschool" characters deserve to be fighters for being significant to Nintendo's history then Wario Land deserves to be represented for being significant to Wario's history.


Do you see where I'm coming from here?
And I'm not the only one thinking that way.

All I'm asking for are some trophies and some songs and I'd be happy. (Seriously, the music is fantastic! :grin:)
There's so much they could work with but as it is now it looks like they are trying to deny the series' existance. :(
Which is just sad.
 
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Yeah, you're right...

...if you're ignoring these two masterpieces! :grin:

_-Donkey-Kong-Country-Returns-Wii-_.jpg
WiiU_DonkeyKongCountryTropicalFreeze_BoxArt.jpg


You can't tell me these two aren't significant for the series. :p

Dixie Kong would only be a clone of you made her one. Give her her own moveset and she'd be set.
And if Cranky can do platforming and beat up enemies in Tropical Freeze the way Donkey can then he can be a Smash fighter too. ^^


Didn't particularly like those, but...

I was using the dilapidated series explanation predominately to show how K Rool wouldn't fit anymore, since he doesn't appear in DKCR as the antagonist and is only given homage in Freeze.  Dixie...You can argue that any character would be their own character if given the moveset.  My rationale for saying she'd be a clone is her similarity to Diddy, and how it makes very little sense why she'd be different except for the up B being her hair swing.  Since they've never appeared in a game where their movesets have been anything but nigh on identical, there's no reason to expect a separate moveset.  Cranky Kong strikes me as more of a joke character, simply because outside of Freeze he's never been actively involved in combat and he's the most blatant "wise old man" character Nintendo has, including Toadsworth who does nothing but worry.  Smash shies away from joke characters, so it makes sense that he wouldn't appear.




Concerning Wario:
Giving him 2 versions with each their own moveset is not cloning. It's the opposite.
Either way, I didn't "expect" them to do that. All I was saying is that it would've been a way to please both the fans of Wario's WarioWare moveset and those who have been wanting his signature moves from Wario Land back. They could've also done that with the custom moves but apparently that was too much effort for them.
To me Wario is just not Wario without his shoulder charge. In Brawl the move didn't work the way it did in the games but at least it was in there. In Smash 4 they removed it entirely and replaced it with a random punch for no reason whatsoever. >_>

When Brawl came out Wario Land was about to be rebooted with Shake it (btw, I don't think that game was meh. It was pretty good, just not as excellent as Wario Land 4 for example)
so they could've done what they did with Pit and used Brawl as a promotion for his next game and his (sort-of) comeback. Maybe then it would've been more successful.

They already knew about Shake it since they used that game's first level theme as his victory tune.


Ok, accepting that they'd be two totally separate characters, imagine how confusing that would be for players.  "There are two Warios?  Which is which?  How are they different?  Which one am I fighting, and how do I react?"  It would create needless confusion among those players who don't know Nintendo's history inside and out and know he wasn't always WarioWare, and that's the last thing you want in a game that's supposed to be fondly remembering the characters, or gaining interest in them.

His "Signature moves" in WarioLand aside from his charge were centered around his ability to transform into various things from taking damage.  There's no way to do that in a game like Smash Bros without him being insanely overcomplicated.  "Oh, I took damage from Robin's Nosferatu, I'm a vampire now".  Not only would that be incredibly gimmicky and hard for both people playing as him and against him to deal with, it would require five times the work of a normal fighter to create.  Remove that, and you wind up with a rather drab character.

Also, they didn't use Pit's appearance in Brawl to boost KI:U sales because that was years before the 3DS came out.  Brawl came out in January 2008, the 3DS arrived in February 2011, and KI:U came out in March 2012.  It's highly likely at the time KI:U wasn't even in development when Brawl came out…in fact, it could have been BECAUSE people were interested in Pit from Brawl that KI:U came to be.  This is unlike Shake It!, which came out just 8 months after Brawl.  We didn't see a new game featuring ROB come out, right?  Therefore it strikes me that the cause-effect might be something different than you're thinking it is. ?




You don't get my point. WarioWare got plenty of representation. No issue there.
But Wario LAND got close to none.

Wait, lemme explain where I'm coming from....

Wario Land has had 5 well known games, all of which ranging from good to excellend. Even the lesser known one on the Virtual Boy was good! (its only flaw being the virtual boy itself. Heck, it was even the only good game on that system!)
Then, it had two spin-off platformers. One good and one not as good.
None of these games were outright bad or anything. All of them are unique, fun and high quality games.
And now 4 of them have been released on Virtual Console!
So it's not like they have fallen that far into obscurity.

But that's not the only reason I think the series should be represented.
Think about it:
Just like you said earlier, characters like Duck Hunt Duo, ROB, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game&Watch have all been added for their historical significance.
Well, without Wario Land Wario would've never become the break-out character that he is today. He would've never appeared in the sports, party and racing games as a reoccurring playable character, he would've never been used as a mascot for Wario Ware inc. and of course he wouldn't be a fighter in Smash today.

Instead he would've become just another forgotten one-note villain like Wart or Tatanga.
So in short:

If the "oldschool" characters deserve to be fighters for being significant to Nintendo's history then Wario Land deserves to be represented for being significant to Wario's history.


Do you see where I'm coming from here?
And I'm not the only one thinking that way.

All I'm asking for are some trophies and some songs and I'd be happy. (Seriously, the music is fantastic! :grin:)
There's so much they could work with but as it is now it looks like they are trying to deny the series' existance. :(
Which is just sad.


Let's look over the facts here…what is Wario best known for in this day and age?  Appearing in the Mario Party/sports games.  After that?  WarioWare.  After that?  Wario Land.  Obviously they couldn't make a character off a sports game (the best they got out of that was our Waluigi Assist Trophy) so the next logical place to look was WarioWare, which is what they did.

I'd like to refute your claim that Virtual Console release implies that this means it deserves more press with the GBC Zeldas.  All three of those are on the 3DS E-Shop, and in my mind are still the best handheld Zeldas ever.  Does this mean that simply because they're still around that we should have Onox as a fighter?  Veran as an assist trophy?  A Nightmare battle stage?  No.  It's an old part of the series and isn't as iconic as more recent games, regardless of how good they were at the time.  Also, you're trying to lump Wario Land era Wario in with Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, ROB, and Game and Watch?  I don't follow this logic…Game and Watch represents their first real forage into the gaming industry…ROB literally saved the company from going under when NES sales didn't go as well as expected…Duck Hunt remains one of the most iconic NES games ever, excluding the main series that spawned from the console, and Ice Climbers follow the same line as Duck Hunt.  Wario Land era Wario is nowhere NEAR as iconic as those.  It'd be like throwing Wart in as a character…he was the main villain from a classic Mario game, so why not?  Because there're far better choices to represent the franchise. ?

I agree that without the Wario Land series, Wario wouldn't be around today.  However, your logic falls off when you say that classic Wario deserves to be a unique character because of this.  Which is the most iconic Wario in today's gaming world, including the one of Brawl?  I'm sorry, but it's WarioWare Wario…ask anyone who isn't a Wario Land fanboy to think of the first Wario-centric game they can…I bet you if you don't prompt them with Wario Land they'll tell you some form of WarioWare.  Therefore, it makes sense that the version of him that would be represented is the WarioWare one.  As I said before including both would be incredibly confusing for more casual gamers, especially if they weren't clones like you said they wouldn't be (instead of like Mario/Dr. Mario, which are clones). ?

Now, I will concede that some Wario Land trophies wouldn't be amiss, aside from the fact they'd look unusual sitting next to the WarioWare ones.  That's a minor detail though.  I don't believe they're trying to deny the series existed, but are rather capitalizing on the fact that the most well-known Wario is WarioWare Wario.  This leads to the seemingly "left out" Wario Land.
 
Smash shies away from joke characters, so it makes sense that he wouldn't appear.


 ....They gave Wario a fart attack.... .-.

?


Ok, accepting that they'd be two totally separate characters, imagine how confusing that would be for players.  "There are two Warios?  Which is which?  How are they different?  Which one am I fighting, and how do I react?"  It would create needless confusion among those players who don't know Nintendo's history inside and out...


You mean like Mario and Dr. Mario? :p


His "Signature moves" in WarioLand aside from his charge were centered around his ability to transform into various things from taking damage.


I just meant the charge attack and the ground pound, his main ways of attacking in WL.


I agree that without the Wario Land series, Wario wouldn't be around today.  However, your logic falls off when you say that classic Wario deserves to be a unique character because of this.


I didn't say that. I said that the WL series deserves recognition because of that. Not necessarily another character, an assist trophy or a stage.
JUST something minor like one or two trophies and a few songs. That really is not too much to ask.

I still think Sakurai has something against Wario Land though.
Why else would they replace Wario's shoulder ram side smash with a generic punch that works the same but just looks different?
They took out a reference, there was no need for that and it was the only thing they changed about his moveset.
I mean what the hell?
 
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 ....They gave Wario a fart attack.... .-.


And that fits his WarioWare personality.  He's known for being gross (this even was before WarioWare) so it fits him, and it's darn strong too.  Hardly a gag move.  A gag move I count as Luigi's down taunt (the kick) simply because it's useless normally but in one situation it's good (people hanging on the edge).



You mean like Mario and Dr. Mario? :p


No, those are clones.  Casual gamers won't care about the slight differences, so accidentally picking the other won't screw them over.  A WarioWare Wario and a Wario Land Wario with his own moveset would be extremely confusing.



I didn't say that. I said that the WL series deserves recognition because of that. Not necessarily another character, an assist trophy or a stage.





And Wario would deserve to be split into 2 characters (classic and biker) with 2 seperate movesets.


I rest my case.



I still think Sakurai has something against Wario Land though.

Why else would they replace Wario's shoulder ram side smash with a generic punch that works the same but just looks different?
They took out a reference, there was no need for that and it was the only thing they changed about his moveset.
I mean what the hell?


For the same reason Yoshi's Up Smash went from a head bash to a kickflip.  Design choices.  That small change and the difference in how my eternal main plays because of that still trips me up occasionally.  Does that mean it's bad?  No.  It's just a redesign.  I'm sure they didn't consider it removing a reference, but rather making Wario a more fluid character (his side smash in Brawl always felt clunky to me).  It also doesn't work the same because he doesn't shift to the side he's smashing in like he did in Brawl.

Anyway, I'm done debating this.  We've strayed far from the original point, which was that Sakurai should not be removed from the series because he's making intelligent choices about what to include and what to not include.  It makes perfect sense to me why for logistical reasons he's chosen to go with WarioWare rather than Wario Land (to reiterate, because that's what the largest number of fans recognize him from in this day and age).  Arguing that nostalgia trumps recognition for a character who is still around today is not a healthy choice for selling a game.
 
I didn't say that. I said that the WL series deserves recognition because of that. Not necessarily another character, an assist trophy or a stage.





And Wario would deserve to be split into 2 characters (classic and biker) with 2 seperate movesets.


I rest my case.



The 2 characters thing was just about how they could please both crowds. It wasn't something I actually expected them to do.
I agree it wouldn't be a good idea. Custom moves would be better.
However, the recognition thing I still stand behind.
 
I'm mad that there was a character wasted on Dark Pit. I mean don't get me wrong I like Dark Pit, but that would have worked better as an alternate costume for Pit. I felt the same way about Mario in SSBB. I mean people complained about a lacking of Dr. Mario, but really all you have to do is make an alt costume for Mario, which I'm surprised they didn't do seeing as a lot people wanted Dr. Mario back. Plus it's not like a huge change was an issue seeing as there's 6 different AC Villagers and Olimar turns into a whole different character. So having Mario look and play like Dr. Mario shouldn't have been too hard, but hey I'm not too butt hurt about it. I rarely use Mario or Dr. Mario in Melee anyway.


Some time after the site went down, I unlocked Dr. Mario. I had no idea he was even in the game at the time I posted this making this redundant. Because of this I expect Young Link back in the series. As a DLC character... right now.
 
At least Young Link had some relevance. Ocarina of Time was the most popular Zelda game ever made, with Majora's Mask being greatly popular as well.

Dark Pit? He was in one game, that wasn't exactly the biggest selling title ever, and that only came out a few years ago.
 
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