Kingdom Hearts [SPOILER]

[Moclon]

Anyone here a fan of the series?
EDIT: Well, in order to cause some kind of discussion, I decided to discuss the actual series.
So, can anyone PLEASE explain the whole 358/2 and Chains thing? I got completely lost there, since in KH2,

Spoiler

you can see Larxene and everyone, and yet, weren't they dead in Chains? Since Axel had to kill the possible traitors?

 

[Lord Regal]

(Please note, I haven't played KH1, 2, Dream Drop, or Birth by Sleep...just Chain and 358/2 days...however, I've watched a ton of Youtube videos from 2)

Chain of Memories does indeed kill Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Marluxia, and Larxene. Ironically, only the last two were traitors, but Vexen was a failure and Zexion figured out why Axel killed Vexen, so he had to be eliminated...only Lexaeus was an unnecessary death in the Organization's eyes. Further, the dead Organization members have graves somewhere in The World That Never Was...not sure where for sure. I haven't seen any cutscenes where any of the dead Organization members are there in KH2...if anything, I'm expecting they're flashbacks. Zexion is seen in 358/2 days after he's dead, but Roxas was hallucinating. It gets confusing, since there's a Japanese version of KH2 with extra cutscenes...I do think everyone's alive in there too...and I know for sure those are flashbacks, so odds are that's what's happening there too.

 

[Moclon]

(Please note, I haven't played KH1, 2, Dream Drop, or Birth by Sleep...just Chain and 358/2 days...however, I've watched a ton of Youtube videos from 2)

Chain of Memories does indeed kill Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Marluxia, and Larxene. Ironically, only the last two were traitors, but Vexen was a failure and Zexion figured out why Axel killed Vexen, so he had to be eliminated...only Lexaeus was an unnecessary death in the Organization's eyes. Further, the dead Organization members have graves somewhere in The World That Never Was...not sure where for sure. I haven't seen any cutscenes where any of the dead Organization members are there in KH2...if anything, I'm expecting they're flashbacks. Zexion is seen in 358/2 days after he's dead, but Roxas was hallucinating. It gets confusing, since there's a Japanese version of KH2 with extra cutscenes...I do think everyone's alive in there too...and I know for sure those are flashbacks, so odds are that's what's happening there too.

And now, a bonus. This video shows Xehanort, Braig, Dilan, Even, and Ienzo, five of the six founding members of the Organization...before they were Nobodies. Why Xehanort is an old man in the first couple of scenes I have no idea...as far as I knew he was always like he was in the last couple of scenes...his father maybe? No clue.

Basically: Plot hole? Or, are they ressurected from the world that never was? I don't understand.

 

[Lord Regal]

I'm talking flashback only. They're dead once they fade away...they weren't supposed to exist in the first place, so I don't think resurrection is possible. Also, the dead ones never factor into the main plot...take a look at this video. There's only 7 members in it, the ones that are left (if you're really good you can hear each individual laugh too) Xemnas, Xigbar, Xaldin, Saix, Axel, Demyx, and Luxord. (Xigbar is missing from the big group, but he shows up later in the scene...if you know how each individual member's coat is different from the rest, you can even tell which one is which...Axel is far left, Demyx second from the right, etc.) I can't remember if the optional fights with the dead members are in the English version or not, but if they are, it's a hologram fight I'm pretty sure. They're dead. Pure and simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNY8qRjAesg

 

[Moclon]

I'm talking flashback only. They're dead once they fade away...they weren't supposed to exist in the first place, so I don't think resurrection is possible. Also, the dead ones never factor into the main plot...take a look at this video. There's only 7 members in it, the ones that are left (if you're really good you can hear each individual laugh too) Xemnas, Xigbar, Xaldin, Saix, Axel, Demyx, and Luxord. (Xigbar is missing from the big group, but he shows up later in the scene...if you know how each individual member's coat is different from the rest, you can even tell which one is which...Axel is far left, Demyx second from the right, etc.) I can't remember if the optional fights with the dead members are in the English version or not, but if they are, it's a hologram fight I'm pretty sure. They're dead. Pure and simple.

If they are dead, how come at the beggining of KH2 Larxene can be seen sitting on one of the Organization's chairs?

 

[Lord Regal]

I don't know how many times I can say it's a flashback before you see it...At the beginning of the game, it shows the Organization in their full glory, before Sora started messing up their plans. This. Is. A. Flashback. It does not take place in the present. It takes place before Chain of Memories.

 

[Moclon]

I don't know how many times I can say it's a flashback before you see it...At the beginning of the game, it shows the Organization in their full glory, before Sora started messing up their plans. This. Is. A. Flashback. It does not take place in the present. It takes place before Chain of Memories.

Oh, that explains it.
Sorry, I didn't read very carefully, it was like, midnight.
Well, can you now explain the whole Xehanort thing? I mean, how was his heart released to create Ansem/Xemnas?
And I just realized what 358 ending means, it's the beggining for KH2, where DiZ gave him another personality because of Axel.

BTW: Wanna play KI:U?

 

[Lord Regal]

It's fine...just frustrated me a bit is all haha. Ok, I'm not sure of the process that was done to create the original Nobodies, but I do know that the original six members (I-VI) decided to turn themselves into Heartless, believing it would give them ultimate power. During the process, Isa and Lea infiltrated the castle where they were working and got caught in the process, turning them into Heartless as well. The Nobodies were side effects they didn't expect...in fact, they didn't want them at all. That's why the Nobodies want their hearts back...they realize the mistake their normal selves made. As for Xemnas/Ansem, the first thing you need to realize is Ansem is DiZ...the "Ansem" in KH1 is really Xehanort's Heartless, masquerading as Ansem to discredit his former mentor (because he wanted to stop work on inter-dimensional travel because it was causing the Heartless to attack), as well as disguise his own identity. Xemnas follows his Heartless in this, mixing Ansem's name instead of Xehanort's. Ansem=Xemnas with an X added, just like members 2-8 and Roxas) The reasoning is much the same...he wants to get rid of his identity as Xehanort, because by all rights he should be dead...after all at the beginning of Birth By Sleep Xehanort is an old man, far older than he is even in KH2...I know why he became younger, but that's another issue altogether. The real Ansem was cast into the Heartless realm when the original 6 members of the Organization betrayed him. He survived and disguised himself as DiZ, working from the shadows to bring down the Organization.

In short, the Ansem in KH1 is really Xehanort's heartless, and Ansem is DiZ.

As for KI: U, I keep swapnoting you back when you send me stuff, but you never respond to the "would this time work?" or "PM me on the N3DSC site" notes.

 

[Moclon]

It's fine...just frustrated me a bit is all haha. Ok, I'm not sure of the process that was done to create the original Nobodies, but I do know that the original six members (I-VI) decided to turn themselves into Heartless, believing it would give them ultimate power. During the process, Isa and Lea infiltrated the castle where they were working and got caught in the process, turning them into Heartless as well. The Nobodies were side effects they didn't expect...in fact, they didn't want them at all. That's why the Nobodies want their hearts back...they realize the mistake their normal selves made. As for Xemnas/Ansem, the first thing you need to realize is Ansem is DiZ...the "Ansem" in KH1 is really Xehanort's Heartless, masquerading as Ansem to discredit his former mentor (because he wanted to stop work on inter-dimensional travel because it was causing the Heartless to attack), as well as disguise his own identity. Xemnas follows his Heartless in this, mixing Ansem's name instead of Xehanort's. Ansem=Xemnas with an X added, just like members 2-8 and Roxas) The reasoning is much the same...he wants to get rid of his identity as Xehanort, because by all rights he should be dead...after all at the beginning of Birth By Sleep Xehanort is an old man, far older than he is even in KH2...I know why he became younger, but that's another issue altogether. The real Ansem was cast into the Heartless realm when the original 6 members of the Organization betrayed him. He survived and disguised himself as DiZ, working from the shadows to bring down the Organization.

In short, the Ansem in KH1 is really Xehanort's heartless, and Ansem is DiZ.

As for KI: U, I keep swapnoting you back when you send me stuff, but you never respond to the "would this time work?" or "PM me on the N3DSC site" notes.

You never sent me anything! I have my 3DS in my hand and I see no new messages!

Oh, and thanks for the explanation

 

[Lord Regal]

(Moving the KI:U part of the conversation to PM)

Not a problem...Kingdom Hearts is a very confusing series if you don't have all the facts. The more scenes I find in English in Birth By Sleep, the more things make sense to me. Ironically, I've never watched anything from the original KH, and yet my understanding of the series is just fine because of flashbacks/forwards in the other games. Anything else you want to know?

 

[Moclon]

(Moving the KI:U part of the conversation to PM)

Not a problem...Kingdom Hearts is a very confusing series if you don't have all the facts. The more scenes I find in English in Birth By Sleep, the more things make sense to me. Ironically, I've never watched anything from the original KH, and yet my understanding of the series is just fine because of flashbacks/forwards in the other games. Anything else you want to know?

Yes, I never played BBS, I only know that Ventus ended up in Sora's heart, Aqua is trapped in the realm of darkness, and the other one..?

 

[Lord Regal]

Haha, Terra's the whole reason Xehanort got to do all that he did. Like I said, Xehanort was an old man at the beginning of BBS, and a keyblade wielder. He's also Terra's mentor (not sure how or why, but he is). Xehanort's only interest in Terra was the fact he saw that Terra's heart was susceptible to darkness...he slowly draws out that darkness, until he's almost completely dark. Then he abandons his own body, kills Terra, and takes the strength of Terra's body to create the one we all know so well. As for Aqua, I knew about the realm of darkness thing, but I thought her heart wound up in Kairi...they look quite similar, and it'd help explain the whole "princess of heart" thing.

 

[Moclon]

Haha, Terra's the whole reason Xehanort got to do all that he did. Like I said, Xehanort was an old man at the beginning of BBS, and a keyblade wielder. He's also Terra's mentor (not sure how or why, but he is). Xehanort's only interest in Terra was the fact he saw that Terra's heart was susceptible to darkness...he slowly draws out that darkness, until he's almost completely dark. Then he abandons his own body, kills Terra, and takes the strength of Terra's body to create the one we all know so well. As for Aqua, I knew about the realm of darkness thing, but I thought her heart wound up in Kairi...they look quite similar, and it'd help explain the whole "princess of heart" thing.

Nope, Aqua is still trapped in the realm of darkness, waiting for Sora to rescue her.
If you saw the secret ending of BBS, you can understand KH3 is going to be about Sora and Riku trying to find Ventus, Aqua and Terra, save them, and kill Xehanort.
Also, can you please explain something I didn't understand in BBS?
Aqua took Ventus' body to C.O, right? Well, how did his heart end up with Sora's?

 

[Lord Regal]

Well, I'm afraid I have a hard time believing that, for several reasons. One, Ventus and Terra both die in the events of BBS. Ventus' heart flees into Sora when he dies so that someone can resist the rising Organization. Terra's heart I'm assuming ends up in Riku, which is why he's the one who has trouble not succumbing to the darkness. Xehanort is completely dead at the end of KH2...his heartless was purged from Riku, and his Nobody is dead. There's a secret scene in the Japanese only version of KH2 where Xemnas spends like 3 minutes going to Aqua's armor, then mocks her for dying. Terra's body is gone since Xehanort used it to create his younger body.

I've seen the secret ending, and what you have to realize is BBS came out AFTER KH2. Part of the secret ending says "It all began with Birth By Sleep". It's not talking about a sequel...it's hinting at the prequel. If Aqua is still alive in the realm of Darkness, then it's a plot hole, since anyone traveling through it without the coat is destroyed instantly. Sora survived because Xehanort's Heartless kept the other Heartless from killing him right away so he could do it himself. I am positive she's dead. The other keyblade wielders didn't live. Her armor is in the Castle That Never Was...she's gone.

 

[Moclon]

Well, I'm afraid I have a hard time believing that, for several reasons. One, Ventus and Terra both die in the events of BBS. Ventus' heart flees into Sora when he dies so that someone can resist the rising Organization. Terra's heart I'm assuming ends up in Riku, which is why he's the one who has trouble not succumbing to the darkness. Xehanort is completely dead at the end of KH2...his heartless was purged from Riku, and his Nobody is dead. There's a secret scene in the Japanese only version of KH2 where Xemnas spends like 3 minutes going to Aqua's armor, then mocks her for dying. Terra's body is gone since Xehanort used it to create his younger body.

I've seen the secret ending, and what you have to realize is BBS came out AFTER KH2. Part of the secret ending says "It all began with Birth By Sleep". It's not talking about a sequel...it's hinting at the prequel. If Aqua is still alive in the realm of Darkness, then it's a plot hole, since anyone traveling through it without the coat is destroyed instantly. Sora survived because Xehanort's Heartless kept the other Heartless from killing him right away so he could do it himself. I am positive she's dead. The other keyblade wielders didn't live. Her armor is in the Castle That Never Was...she's gone.

But didn't she use her armor to rescue Terra's body?
Plus, the secret ending was 10 years after KH2, or at least that's what it says in Wikipedia, that means Aqua is NOT dead.
Ugh, nevermind already, KH's complexy makes War & Peace look like a nursery rhyme, I will never understand anything.
Also, I think you meant XEMNAS died at the end of KH2?

 

[Lord Regal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CwFL7cE41U

Xehanort's heartless was inside Riku. He used the blindfold to keep it in check. When the machine went off, it destroyed the Heartless inside him. That means all that was left was Xemnas, and he goes too. I think I know what happens though, if it truly is ten years later. The Keyblade Graveyard...where all fallen keyblade members go when they die. Embroiled in an eternal war between the good wielders and the bad ones, trying to keep the world in balance. Xehanort talks of it in the beginning of BBS, and that'd make sense...and prove my thought that Aqua's dead. Now I just want to know how Sora and Riku died by that point. Aqua couldn't have used her armor to rescue Terra, since that would've destroyed Xehanort's new body, which we know didn't happen.

 

[Moclon]

Xehanort's heartless was inside Riku. He used the blindfold to keep it in check. When the machine went off, it destroyed the Heartless inside him. That means all that was left was Xemnas, and he goes too. I think I know what happens though, if it truly is ten years later. The Keyblade Graveyard...where all fallen keyblade members go when they die. Embroiled in an eternal war between the good wielders and the bad ones, trying to keep the world in balance. Xehanort talks of it in the beginning of BBS, and that'd make sense...and prove my thought that Aqua's dead. Now I just want to know how Sora and Riku died by that point. Aqua couldn't have used her armor to rescue Terra, since that would've destroyed Xehanort's new body, which we know didn't happen.

Okay, so Xehanort's Heartless and Xehanort's nobody died, that doesn't mean the actual Xehanort didn't die, or, wait..nev...Ugh.
I don't understand anything by now, sorry, BBS is just too complicated for me.

 

[Lord Regal]

Haha, let's see if I can clear this up. When Xehanort, Braig, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo turned themselves into Heartless, they split into two parts. One was the Heartless they wanted to become. The body that each one left behind became the Nobodies, the extra, unintentional second half. Once both halves are dead, the person is truly dead. So technically, Xehanort's heartless COULD still be alive...we never saw it die, but unless it felt remorse OR was shown a ton of affection it couldn't ever come back to be a normal person again. I don't see either one of those happening to Xehanort.

 

[Moclon]

Haha, let's see if I can clear this up. When Xehanort, Braig, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo turned themselves into Heartless, they split into two parts. One was the Heartless they wanted to become. The body that each one left behind became the Nobodies, the extra, unintentional second half. Once both halves are dead, the person is truly dead. So technically, Xehanort's heartless COULD still be alive...we never saw it die, but unless it felt remorse OR was shown a ton of affection it couldn't ever come back to be a normal person again. I don't see either one of those happening to Xehanort.

But, wait, so, why did Square Enix say that KH3 will finish the "Xehanort Saga" If Xehanort died already?
Also, Sora became a heartless to save Kairi, and therefore Roxas was born, but then Sora became normal again, does that mean Sora has no heartless?

EDIT: I just tried googling the Xehanort Saga thing and realized it's a big spoiler in KHDD, which Is the only game I want to experience without knowing the entire story beforehand, so if something involves KH:3D, put it in spoiler tags.

 

[Lord Regal]

All I know about DDD is it involves time travel, so it's possible for them to see Xehanort again. I don't know anything beyond that. Yes, since Kairi showed sufficient emotion to Sora's Heartless, his body was restored, meaning he doesn't have a Heartless anymore. Also, KH3 is NOT DDD. The tiny bit I know about the story makes that clear to me. Either it's not out yet, or it's BBS...either one could be correct. I'd assume it's BBS judging from what you said above, because it shows how Xehanort began everything, completing our understanding of the man. A trilogy doesn't necessarily have to be in chronological order...