In both cases, but i was focusing more on those are free and being beaten by a cop while being arrested or the owner of the house with the name of self defense.
Should Criminals have protection?
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Thread started by FTON
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This is possibly the most ignorant thing I have ever read. I don't even have words.
Just. No.
Eh I've actually put some time into researching this before for an article.
So it might be best to do the same amount of research before calling something ignorant.
Also, in case you misunderstood, I'm not saying that most of the people that are convicted for rape are actually innocent.
I'm saying that false rape reports are usually more credible than real ones.
GracefulAssassin
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What's the ignorant part? I don't see it as ignorance, but I don't agree with him.
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The entire thing? Being able to prove someone guilty of a crime that they didn't commit when they can barely prosecute the same when it actually does occur.
Just, no. There's so much more required to prosecute rape than just a well articulated testimony. The article from earlier is an extraordinary case and is a result of the parties involved not doing their job properly opposed to it being 'easier' than proving a guilty party as guilty.
If you have researched it thoroughly then I would love to see your resources because everything I've researched opposes that idea completely.
It was 2 years ago, so I don't have the actual resources I used at that time.
I don't know how you did your research, but I can say that reading random articles found on Google won't help you have a valid arguement.
1. Find articles about men that were convicted for rape, and later exonerated due to false accusations. There have been hundreds of cases in the past decades. And strangely enough, most of them were black or Hispanic men.
2. Find articles about rape cases where the culprits were tried and found innocent, and try to analyze what was the main point that worked in their favor, from what I've seen it was incoherent and contradictory declarations of the victims.
3. If you have the time try asking some lawyers online, or locally if you want, what is the main reason that can cause a man to be found guilty or innocent of rape when there is nothing but circumstantial evidence and the testimony of the victim. I even watched a few actual court sessions, and one thing that was recurrent was the fact that the defense attorneys used the fact that the women were emotionally unstable to pressure them into going back on their statements, or forcing them to admit that they might have been wrong in certain parts of their testimonies.
I could find the different resources for you, but eh that would be a waste of my time since I don't exactly feel the need to prove my point. Feel free to do it yourself, or not.
I guess I could however guide you to some reliable sources if you are having trouble finding some material.
Also, no offense meant, but you're just making an ass out of yourself by calling a well researched argument ignorant, simply because you don't agree with it. Whats ignorant is believing your opinion is the only one that matters when you've most likely not researched the subject from every aspect.
Also note that I'm not 100% sure that my opinion is the right one either, and I am open for the possibility that you could prove me wrong. But that wont be till you bring actual evidences, and that doesn't include claiming that opinion is ignorant.
I don't know how you did your research, but I can say that reading random articles found on Google won't help you have a valid arguement.
1. Find articles about men that were convicted for rape, and later exonerated due to false accusations. There have been hundreds of cases in the past decades. And strangely enough, most of them were black or Hispanic men.
2. Find articles about rape cases where the culprits were tried and found innocent, and try to analyze what was the main point that worked in their favor, from what I've seen it was incoherent and contradictory declarations of the victims.
3. If you have the time try asking some lawyers online, or locally if you want, what is the main reason that can cause a man to be found guilty or innocent of rape when there is nothing but circumstantial evidence and the testimony of the victim. I even watched a few actual court sessions, and one thing that was recurrent was the fact that the defense attorneys used the fact that the women were emotionally unstable to pressure them into going back on their statements, or forcing them to admit that they might have been wrong in certain parts of their testimonies.
I could find the different resources for you, but eh that would be a waste of my time since I don't exactly feel the need to prove my point. Feel free to do it yourself, or not.
I guess I could however guide you to some reliable sources if you are having trouble finding some material.
Also, no offense meant, but you're just making an ass out of yourself by calling a well researched argument ignorant, simply because you don't agree with it. Whats ignorant is believing your opinion is the only one that matters when you've most likely not researched the subject from every aspect.
Also note that I'm not 100% sure that my opinion is the right one either, and I am open for the possibility that you could prove me wrong. But that wont be till you bring actual evidences, and that doesn't include claiming that opinion is ignorant.
GamerPerfection
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Depends on the type of violence they receive and what crime they committed originally. However, if they do receive violence then those that carried out the violence against the criminal should face charges also. Vigilantism is a crime, and revenge, punishment or (justice by non-law officials) is vigilantism.
Also, not every person that is convicted and imprisoned is guilty, and therefore if you take away all those in prison's right to legal protection then you could be subjecting an innocent person to extreme abuse with no legal protection whatsoever.
Therefore, I don't think the answer is a clear cut yes or no.
The best option would be protecting everyone. While I believe there are many criminals that don't deserve any kind of protection, there are even more that deserve it. Also the worst criminals *(with a few exceptions) usually stick together and most likely don't need protection because they have their own gang for that. And as I've said previously, they are usually the ones starting the violence. So protecting everyone doesn't necessarily that we'll be protecting them. It could actually be taking away something that makes their prison life more enjoyable.
Also, a more serious issue is the fact that some prison guards are usually indiscriminately violent towards prisoners. Either because they have a grudge against prisoners in general, or because they get high on power. Thats another thing that should be stopped.
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First, although I don't quite agree with Mori's statements on rape, I'm not so sure that it is ignorance so much as misinformation and him reporting on what he has observed in his own country and the customs there. Based on his statements in this, and other threads, it sounds like he may be from a country in which the statistics are somewhat skewered in favor of men and against women, compared to the facts that we know in our own countries.
I think that we should all remember that women are not yet treated as equals or with the respect they deserve in all countries, like they would be in the U.S., Canada and Australia. it is evident that this is an emotionally charged topic and for good reason and we are all answering based on the stats as they are in our respective countries, and perhaps our own personal perspective. So while we might have a 2013 attitude toward rape, some countries have a 1940's and prior attitude about it.
With that being said, Mori, I have no idea where you are in the world, but here, in the U.S., criminals are usually treated better and have more rights than the civilians on the outside. The laws protecting criminals in this country have made it so. They have access to 3 hot meals a day, medical, including dental, vision and psychiatric, education, computer and internet access, conjugal visits, gym privileges, recess, cable tv, and social interaction in general.
They are even allowed to get married as well, and make money as well, such as the case with those who have book deals and movies based on them. Many criminals have it so good, that some make being arrested a career, simply because they won't have to work or pay for the things that we would have to make posting here possible.
The death penalty, while controversial, and even billed as saving taxpayer dollars, as opposed to keeping them inside for life, is actually quite expensive, and when you take into account how long death row is (Richard Ramirez is still alive today despite his heinous crimes in the 70's and had shown no remorse, and still doesn't, and I won't even mention Charles Manson and other's like him.) and appeals, it is actually quite expensive for taxpayers.
It is also here that many rapists do go free because of the lack of information that a DNA test would provide, but eventually, they slip up and rape again because they have become arrogant and think that they won't be caught, and so, while they may not be caught the first time, they will be caught again, and it is their own arrogance that makes it happen. Keep in mind that unless it is a rape involving a drug, etc, most rapes are paired with battery as well, and so, it is likely that the perp will be brought up on charges for that, and for the rape itself. This is of course provided that the police do the jobs they were hired to do, which was not the case with the earlier case I mentioned.
It is also here, that in quite a few states, that a woman who was raped and impregnated by it, would not have access to an abortion, because the laws that would prevent her from doing so, are based on the religious beliefs of the and male-oriented law makers rather than it is about protecting the woman. There are many law makers in this country that is trying to see to it that more women do not have access to an abortion even in cases of rape and when their states originally upheld a woman's right to choose.
And yet, you think that criminals should be protected? Where is the money for that going to come from? I know that money doesn't grow on trees here, and I am willing to bet that the same goes for wherever you are.Taxpayer money is already funding them and the things I mentioned.
What needs to happen is this, first, they need to legalize marijuana and make the laws apply retroactively to those arrested on nonviolent drug charges, so that those MANY inmates who were arrested on non-violent, marijuana charges are released from prison and with an apology. This would free up a lot of the space in there today, because it isn't right that a person who was repeatedly arrested buying weed for say, a loved one who happens to be a Cancer patient suffering from the effects of chemo, to be thrown in with someone who was part of a wet work team for a known gang. It just isn't right.
While it is true that prisoners are not always treated well in places like Mexico, Iraq or Cuba (Guantanamo Bay, especially but that is a gray area) that is not the case here.
I think that we should all remember that women are not yet treated as equals or with the respect they deserve in all countries, like they would be in the U.S., Canada and Australia. it is evident that this is an emotionally charged topic and for good reason and we are all answering based on the stats as they are in our respective countries, and perhaps our own personal perspective. So while we might have a 2013 attitude toward rape, some countries have a 1940's and prior attitude about it.
With that being said, Mori, I have no idea where you are in the world, but here, in the U.S., criminals are usually treated better and have more rights than the civilians on the outside. The laws protecting criminals in this country have made it so. They have access to 3 hot meals a day, medical, including dental, vision and psychiatric, education, computer and internet access, conjugal visits, gym privileges, recess, cable tv, and social interaction in general.
They are even allowed to get married as well, and make money as well, such as the case with those who have book deals and movies based on them. Many criminals have it so good, that some make being arrested a career, simply because they won't have to work or pay for the things that we would have to make posting here possible.
The death penalty, while controversial, and even billed as saving taxpayer dollars, as opposed to keeping them inside for life, is actually quite expensive, and when you take into account how long death row is (Richard Ramirez is still alive today despite his heinous crimes in the 70's and had shown no remorse, and still doesn't, and I won't even mention Charles Manson and other's like him.) and appeals, it is actually quite expensive for taxpayers.
It is also here that many rapists do go free because of the lack of information that a DNA test would provide, but eventually, they slip up and rape again because they have become arrogant and think that they won't be caught, and so, while they may not be caught the first time, they will be caught again, and it is their own arrogance that makes it happen. Keep in mind that unless it is a rape involving a drug, etc, most rapes are paired with battery as well, and so, it is likely that the perp will be brought up on charges for that, and for the rape itself. This is of course provided that the police do the jobs they were hired to do, which was not the case with the earlier case I mentioned.
It is also here, that in quite a few states, that a woman who was raped and impregnated by it, would not have access to an abortion, because the laws that would prevent her from doing so, are based on the religious beliefs of the and male-oriented law makers rather than it is about protecting the woman. There are many law makers in this country that is trying to see to it that more women do not have access to an abortion even in cases of rape and when their states originally upheld a woman's right to choose.
And yet, you think that criminals should be protected? Where is the money for that going to come from? I know that money doesn't grow on trees here, and I am willing to bet that the same goes for wherever you are.Taxpayer money is already funding them and the things I mentioned.
What needs to happen is this, first, they need to legalize marijuana and make the laws apply retroactively to those arrested on nonviolent drug charges, so that those MANY inmates who were arrested on non-violent, marijuana charges are released from prison and with an apology. This would free up a lot of the space in there today, because it isn't right that a person who was repeatedly arrested buying weed for say, a loved one who happens to be a Cancer patient suffering from the effects of chemo, to be thrown in with someone who was part of a wet work team for a known gang. It just isn't right.
While it is true that prisoners are not always treated well in places like Mexico, Iraq or Cuba (Guantanamo Bay, especially but that is a gray area) that is not the case here.
Actually the legal system of my country is in almost every way similar to that of the U.S., except that we don't have the death penalty. And I might be wrong about this one, but I believe our law is harsher towards people guilty of rape, and we also have a higher conviction rate.
The way prisoners are treated is also the same, although cases of violence towards convicts are less frequent, but thats to be expected since we only have like 3 prisons.
And maybe they are well treated in general, but the fact remains that there are cases of violence from convicts towards convicts and from prison guards towards convicts. I should be able to dig up a few dozens if I looked around. In short, they are well treated, but that doesn't mean they are well protected. And this is what I believe should be stopped.
Our laws also greatly favor women in pretty much every aspect.
Also, all the cases and statistics I've analyzed for my argument about rapes are from the U.S., I've also double-checked everything before I wrote this article since it was for a local newspaper and I made sure that there was no misinformation. I should be able to find a copy if anyone wants to read it, although its pretty much everything I've pointed out on here plus statistics and examples of rape cases.
So I can affirm that my argument is not the result of misinformation of local customs.
The way prisoners are treated is also the same, although cases of violence towards convicts are less frequent, but thats to be expected since we only have like 3 prisons.
And maybe they are well treated in general, but the fact remains that there are cases of violence from convicts towards convicts and from prison guards towards convicts. I should be able to dig up a few dozens if I looked around. In short, they are well treated, but that doesn't mean they are well protected. And this is what I believe should be stopped.
Our laws also greatly favor women in pretty much every aspect.
Also, all the cases and statistics I've analyzed for my argument about rapes are from the U.S., I've also double-checked everything before I wrote this article since it was for a local newspaper and I made sure that there was no misinformation. I should be able to find a copy if anyone wants to read it, although its pretty much everything I've pointed out on here plus statistics and examples of rape cases.
So I can affirm that my argument is not the result of misinformation of local customs.
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Not having as many gaurds in a prison could end up being bad since if a prison has fewer gaurds there would be more un-employment in the local town since no prisoners needs protection, a prison riot could start because of a lack of guards, and all the prisoners work together to escape prison to seek revenge or commit more crimes because of a lack of gaurds gaurding the prison.
I think if prisoners don't need protection the government will fire a lot of police officers, prison gaurds, and other prison workers to save money, so the rich pay fewer taxes while the middle class who work in prisons and jails becomes unemployed, and working at jobs which pay a lot less like at Wal-mart, and Mc. Donalds.
A civil war can also be caused by not protecting any prisoners like how the US had a civil war because of slavery of black people when Ab. Lincoin was president. A lot of people have family members, friends, and co-workers who are in prison for crimes, or wrongfully convicted of crimes, so a large part of the population agrees with protecting prisoners.
I think if prisoners don't need protection the government will fire a lot of police officers, prison gaurds, and other prison workers to save money, so the rich pay fewer taxes while the middle class who work in prisons and jails becomes unemployed, and working at jobs which pay a lot less like at Wal-mart, and Mc. Donalds.
A civil war can also be caused by not protecting any prisoners like how the US had a civil war because of slavery of black people when Ab. Lincoin was president. A lot of people have family members, friends, and co-workers who are in prison for crimes, or wrongfully convicted of crimes, so a large part of the population agrees with protecting prisoners.
GracefulAssassin
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Well, BA, misinformation is somewhat ignorance because you didn't find the right info, or bothered to look into the matter more. That being said, I still don't think it's an ignorant comment, more along the lines of misinterpretation of the justice system.
Sure, I think criminals should have protection.
I grew up in an area where practically every has gotten criminally charged one way or another.
Now, I have several criminal convictions on my resume gowing up from the area. The problem is most people think someone who has been criminally charged is guilty but the system is totally corrupt. Cops everywhere are pinning stuff on people who were just at the wrong place at the wrong time and we all know how the court system works. If you plead guilty they are happy. If you plead not guilty you are threatened with higher conviction sentences and it costs you your house. Because the system is so rigged a lot of people in prison are victims of the gov't. Therefore I think they deserve protection.
I grew up in an area where practically every has gotten criminally charged one way or another.
Now, I have several criminal convictions on my resume gowing up from the area. The problem is most people think someone who has been criminally charged is guilty but the system is totally corrupt. Cops everywhere are pinning stuff on people who were just at the wrong place at the wrong time and we all know how the court system works. If you plead guilty they are happy. If you plead not guilty you are threatened with higher conviction sentences and it costs you your house. Because the system is so rigged a lot of people in prison are victims of the gov't. Therefore I think they deserve protection.
GracefulAssassin
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A wrong interpretation... If you don't know much about how the stuff works, and based on what you said you seem not to, then you definitely won't have a well formed opinion. I'm not trying to sound smug, but I have researched a lot about everything to do with how the law works, the police department's job, how court works, the job of lawyers and judges, etc.
GracefulAssassin
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Canada is different than America. lol Plus I've asked my local PD about how it works, and I've also seen court cases and what not.I think you both would be surprised to know how it really works, opposed to reading it in a book.
And how did you research that?
GracefulAssassin
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Let me get this straight. You're asking me how I researched the research?
GamerPerfection
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Always research the research the research...... i thought everyone knew that!