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A Fight about Tibet

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Naiwen

Naiwen

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jme9uqWb06w&lcor=1&lc=ug0bkauTScOcx5PGk8oh5iK0mTSSN4cg-V8N1hkQxW8&lch=email_reply&feature=em-comment_reply_received

So this, a lulz sort of "fight"
between me and a "biased White"
on the Youtube.

Now I'm saying White, because
person I'm guessing this is probably
a White or a Westerner.

I'm being very sarcastic with
him/her there.

You may argue on his side or mine,
I don't mind it... but don't judge
Chinese history or the Chinese without knowing your own and China's.

A White who doesn't know
his/her own history.

A N.B: I'm not saying all Whites
are like him/her by the way...
He/she makes me laugh with his
weak arguments against the Chinese
without Eurasia history.

Or what really happened between the
tibetans & hans...


Now I'd like to give people here
some historical background
before you jump into conclusions
like this guy/girl here, you should knowsome real historical facts...and not listen to anything on the News meant to
raise anti-Chinese sentiments/feelings:
China didn't invade Tibet,
Tibetains/Mongols invaded us (according to the Chinese version of this and you
can go read some of it if you know how
to read Mandarin) & We made an alliance
with them while facing invasions
by Russians & White Europeans (British,
French, Italians, Germans and etc...)
around 1400.
 
If they want to be free, right now, then let them be. Regardless of who it is, and the history behind it, no people should be unwillingly subjugated. 

Look at Scotland voting for their Independence next year, give them the choice. 
 
Guardian said:
If they want to be free, right now, then let them be. Regardless of who it is, and the history behind it, no people should be unwillingly subjugated. 
 
Look at Scotland voting for their Independence next year, give them the choice.
Click to expand...
China is giving them the choice...
and even let them live as Tibetans, not Chinese... what more could
they want?

Will the U.K let Scots/Irish be free, no...? Same thing
as Tibet them.

& Freedom divides countries and independance makes them weak... look at how
weak/divided Britain/Germany was... how
many unecessary wars... and bloodshed
over territory between the French,
British, Scottish, & even Germans,
Turks/Greeks, that's what your "freedom/independance" gives people.

and doesn't let the people live in peace
& propesperity, unity makes a country/people strong.
 
Good propaganda ideas biased towards the Chinese point of view. 

A semi-autonomous Tibet is not free or independent. They should be entirely free of the bonds that tie them with China.

And yes, the UK IS allowing Scotland to vote for Independence. Ireland IS independent. Northern Ireland is NOT because they are predominately Protestant and do not want to be tied to the Catholic majority. 
 
Guardian said:
Good propaganda ideas biased towards the Chinese point of view. 
 
A semi-autonomous Tibet is not free or independent. They should be entirely free of the bonds that tie them with China.
 
And yes, the UK IS allowing Scotland to vote for Independence. Ireland IS independent. Northern Ireland is NOT because they are predominately Protestant and do not want to be tied to the Catholic majority.
Click to expand...
What for? Only made Scotland/Ireland/UK poor...?
Lol... Only for Westerners to easily invade China.

I love how you Westerners play the indepandance & the "non-belonging" card...
Since it's like saying Scotland/Ireland
never even belonged to the British Empire or Scots/Irish people aren't Whites
nor even the Brits' descendants.
Oh then, the Irish/Scots should not
even speak English & should have no bonds with the U.K, their Motherland, same
no...? And yes, Tibet did belong to
China for hundred of years even and Tibetans did willingly become Chinese 400 years ago (their Chieftans surrendered to the Chinese by offering the "White
scarf", which is a Tibetan peace symbol and there are documents about this...(like Mongols and Manchus did in China, not
by force... nor concquer... It's a
Spanish wanting to be American, or an
European wanting to belong to Asia, no?

And so you're concluding that Scots/Irish/Americans weren't once Europeans...?
And shouldn't want to be Europeans?

& and my point to you is also: since you're not Tibetan, you shoulnd't decide
what you think is best for them...
but also let them decide/see for themselves?
Now that's true & real freedom of decision, not what you believe is good for
them. And can't you see some are
wanting to be Chinese? Like I've previously mentionned, some White Europeans/Americans are wanting to Chinese/Japanese/Korean even...? And that's also their choice yes...? to be whatever they want...?

Or all American states should be free from Americans... or independant countries...? Would America free them all (51 states of America)...? My view again: only
made America weak and decline, didn't strengthen the American identity...

And that's where hypocrisy comes in eh..... when the issue is closer home...
 
You make it sound like I condoned those countries being together int he first place. I don't. You pointed it out already, although contradicting when you said they SURRENDERED. That is NOT willing. People should eb whatever they want. Personally I don't think the Americas should have been colonized by Europeans or anyone, they should have been left to develop how the people living here did.

You are very one-sided in your argument and are placing peoples opinions for them when you are wrong. 

You are right when you say I shouldn't decide what Tibetans want, the Tibetans should. the problem is they will never get a fair shake from the Chinese government and even if real sentiment was complete Independence the Chinese government would cover it up like they do any type of dissent. 

To add to your last line, yes I also think the 50 states should be independent if they desire. We're too big and too diverse, this Union isn't working. Same goes for any large country. US, China, Russia, India, etc. 
 
Guardian said:
You make it sound like I condoned those countries being together int he first place. I don't. You pointed it out already, although contradicting when you said they SURRENDERED. That is NOT willing. People should eb whatever they want. Personally I don't think the Americas should have been colonized by Europeans or anyone, they should have been left to develop how the people living here did.
 
You are very one-sided in your argument and are placing peoples opinions for them when you are wrong. 
 
You are right when you say I shouldn't decide what Tibetans want, the Tibetans should. the problem is they will never get a fair shake from the Chinese government and even if real sentiment was complete Independence the Chinese government would cover it up like they do any type of dissent. 
 
To add to your last line, yes I also think the 50 states should be independent if they desire. We're too big and too diverse, this Union isn't working. Same goes for any large country. US, China, Russia, India, etc.
Click to expand...
Oh really...? Like you in the West do with anyone who's
communists...and or non-White... which is why you're argument is absurd.
And oh please... like America doesn't like & cover up stuf
f by using pro-USA mediatic propaganda...? Or doesn't manipulate it's citizens... So don't direct this only at China
because you might sound just like this
one-sided anti-China...?

So yes my point: every or all governement does this type of thing to it's citizens. Why? to calm down rebellions & such... which I think is the right thing to
do.


Why? Even freedom shouldn't be forced upon people.
Because freedom is also a forced idea...

And well, I don't think so, nor do I agree with any of
what you're saying. Many people wish to be one with
the world even...

And Black Angel, it's really the same...as Guardian said and as you said so yourself, tibet is an autonomous/independant region or state (within the people's Republic of China) ... just like
the territories in Canada, USA...
Why can't you see your argument sounds one-sided or biased too?

And if Canada & etc... are truly independant and free from any British power over them or whatever, why do we Canadians or French have to pay taxes to the Queen of England? So, if so free, why do we
as a country have to pay for the Queens's visits to the country?

And I'm sure Scots/Irish and etc musn't
be very happy to do that either.
 
Really now, if Tibet really is so free and independent per your suggestion, then why is it that so many people were willing to sacrifice themselves in one of the most horrific ways possible to protest?

http://www.freetibet.org/news-media/na/full-list-self-immolations-tibet

Say what you will about the U.S., Canada, the U.K. and any other civilized society, but we don't have a list of people who set themselves on fire.

If this was such a good thing then why are so many people willing to die for this cause and in such a horrible way?

Honestly, what's next, Sanaki? You arguing in favor of the One Child Policy, the mass aborting of female fetuses and Chinese censorship? It is hilarious that China has such a problem with overpopulation, yet they refuse to educate people.

It is kind of like the extremely religious southern states here who are against masturbation, sex ed, and condom use being taught in school, with condom distribution in schools and pro-choice legistation, to fully educate the teens who are likely to have sex, and yet, these are the same exact states suffer from the highest amount in teen pregnancies, high school drop outs and the number of those who are poor and on welfare.

If China and Chinese rule were so peachy, then you wouldn't have as many people willing to die as an alternative and you wouldn't have as many Chinese people moving their families to countries where they don't set themselves on fire to protest and the people wouldn't be establishing generations of families here as well.

We've only had one such occurence in the U.S. and that was the result of the shutdown.

Democracy may not be perfect, but at least its not communism.
 
Oh... didn't Americans do this too for .their country and Africans are still doing this no for their lands..? What's that done for Africans, except make them poor and weak?

And again, you're doing the exact same
thing as I was in the other thread...?

You're sounding very very close-minded/one-sided
about this, since you don't even know what is commuism. So can you tell me
what is it? or what does the word mean?
Since you're going to answer with bias:
I'll be telling you that communism really is (semantically speaking or it's even in the root of the word: to commune with people
and the world) is to share with others.
And how Americans demonized it...
and demonized communist countries.
And for your information, China is socialist-capitalist now (at least economically and is a Republic on the political side of things, contrary to publicbelief and mass'opinions about it.

What... I'm free to argue for whatever
side of the perspective I want, yes?

And aren't you just sounding a tidbit anti-China yourself?
and can't you understand that (protest
thing there) just might just be propaganda against China too?
As there is anti-American propaganda too eh? (Not making this up)...?

And what if I did say anything anti-African, or anti-Obama,how would you feel or react? Because in my opinion, Obama
isn't listening to American people's wishes at all.
For example, the protest against the Syria war, Afghanistan, Egypt So my point is here: that I feel Obama's government is dictating Americans, just like PRC is.


Also, if Tibet was completely and wholly
a "free land", it would be like Isreal.
Why? Because it would neither belong
to Europe, nor Asia... eh? And just so you know, there are many Tibetans elsewhere in China too and think Tibetans should be one with the Chinese again because
guess what, they've got Chinese family eh?
 
You calling me closed minded is literally the pot calling the kettle black.

I know what communism is and if it were the utopian way of life you try to make it out to be, then you wouldnt have so many people protesting against it. I have already mentioned the 1 case of self-emolation, and that was 1 in two weeks of the shut down. And even then, the man was mentally ill. So it is likely that he would have done the same thing if he found out that his football team didnt male it to the Super Bowl.

Second, I am not really concerned with your opinions on the president, so you can think what you want.

The fact that you are arguing in favor of China n this shows that you really wouldn't have a grasp on what Democracy or the Democratic process is. Say what you will about the U.S. but if we dont like something then we either protest, or we vote in the next election.

Contrary to what you may think about how a president is or should be, the president is only 1/3 of the power in office and in order to move forward he has to have at least 2/3 of the government with him. He represents the executive branch while Congress represents the legislative and the Supreme Court represents the Judicial branch.

The president cannot declare war on his own without congressional approval just like a law cannot move forward without the president's signature. This iswhy there was a shutdown. The people have already voted, SCOTUS had already approved the president's healthcare reform and instead of the House doing the right thing, they stalled which had serious consequences, but in the end, they did the right thing.

The system of checks and balances are there so that the U.S. doesn't end up becoming like China, a dictatorship, unfortunately, it isn't perfect and can be abused which is what this shutdown has shown. There have been many times in which Congress has refused to negotiate with the president and things were held up as a result, such as the closing of Gitmo, and many other first term and campaign promises. In my opinion the executive branch is probably the least powerful branch, but like with the British monarchs, there is a title but it is mostly ceremonial.

The president isnt a king or a dictator and he cant just do whatever he wants and always has to answer to someone and it is never without consequence. The president may have the power to sign laws, and veto, but they can always be overturned and that is how it is with our government.

The people may not have liked how he handled Syria or Bin Laden for that matter, but there is always going to be people who will be displeased regarding anything he does, no matter what the issue, but with that being said, we don't kill ourselves over it. We either organize a protest, or we vote in the next election, and in most cases, we don't get arrested for it either.
 
Black Angel said:
I mentioned the 1 case of self-emolation, and that was 1 in two weeks of the shut down.

Second, I am not really concerned with your opinions on the president, so you can think what you want.

The fact that you are arguing in favor of China n this shows that you really would have a grasp on what Democracy or the Democratic process is. Say what you will about the U.S. but if we dont like something then we either protest, or we vote in the next election.

Contrary to what you may think about how a president is or should be, the president is only 1/3 of the power in office and in order to move forward he has to have at least 2/3 of the government with him. He represents the executive branch while Congress represents the legislative and the Supreme Court represents the Judicial branch. The president cannot declare war on his own without congressional approval just like a law cannot move forward without the president's signature. This iswhy there was a shutdown. The people have already voted, SCOTUS had already approved the president's healthcare reform and instead of the House doing the right thing, they stalled which had serious consequences, but in the end, they did the right thing.

The people may not have liked how he handled Syria or Bin Laden for that matter, but there is always going to be people who will be displeased regarding anything he does, no matter what the issue, but with that being said, we don't kill ourselves over it. We either organize a protest, or we vote in the next election, and in most cases, we don't get arrested for it either.
Click to expand...
Can you not see it's not related to a country's government, but how the governement is run?

And the right thing, according to Americans'opinions of
themselves only or Westerner's opinions about how they do things in politics
(other countries may be against what they're doing and yet they're still forcing stuff down on other throats even their democracy... which
is really biased and a one-sided PoV on things...
and they feel the need to dictate the world and decide
things for other people/countries.

And if American citizens are so free, Americans wouldn't
feel threatened by anything. Why? Not even by their own
government?

And so I think it's not related to a country's government, but how things are managed in said government?
And any government can do this sort of stuff(arrest people for protesting..) to their people, so it depends on the leader's views on things.

And let me point out your "arresting people's for protesting against their government" argument. Many countries
did that also (Germany, France, England when England was an empire, so did America).

For America's case, I'm referring to the African people's
fate in the USA or Nelson Mandela's emprisonment.

And so yes, you are again sounding so
one-sided/prejudiced against China yourself, just
by what you're saying though.

And did you not read, I said I was
being sarcastic from the start? (So
meaning what I'm saying or even playing the playing the devil's advocate....)?

And another point about this: Westerners
always lie about others... and slander/demonize other's history and based their
opinions on whatever they think happened. Like they do it so often with China/Arab countries and etc and thinking they
know everything and base their opinions
on 1 side of facts only. Of course,
it's only human to do this, but still,
they did it to often to my home and I can't tolerate this when I talk to them
about America and how I'm seeing it,
immediately, they're judging me as anti-America.

You wouldn't like it either, if people said this stuff about your ancestors' lands?
 
No, i am not being one sided against China, to be honest, i am not concerned about it, i just go by what i have seen and heard in the news and i disagree with you. I am not being one sided, or blind, and I don't consider this to be a good thing at all.

You may see the horrific protests, the One Child Policy, gender-based abortions, censorship and refusal to educate the masses to be a good thing, but I disagree with you. More importantly, why do you consider these to be good things?

There will always be propaganda, but the difference here is that China has a national firewall to keep its people from accessing information that mostly everyone else has access to. Why? If China really is the free country you make it out to be, then why does the government censor its people? Maybe you can help me understand why this, the abortions and these protests are a good thing?

For the sake of argument, let's say that I have been corrupted by that bad, disgusting thing called the news, freedom and education and as a result, I have been brainwashed into thinking that these are bad, why don't you educate me on why you think they are good things?

You say that I am biased against China, so I am asking you to enlighten me on this subject since you seem to be the expert.

Also, did, is the operative word in your statement where arresting protestors were concerned. That would imply that it didn't occur any more. There will always be arrests made during protests but it wouldn't be to the extent that it is in places where free speech is prohibited.

And I am not sure what you are refering to when you say the African people's fate, but if you are talking about Slavery, then you should know that that was abolished in 1865. Racism is still an issue today, but not to the same extent it was in the 50's and 60's and it is getting better.

As for African people, they come over here much like other immigrants and they start their own businesses and end up becoming successful as well. You'd be surprised at how successful they are in NYC.

And no, most Americans want our government to be committed to taking care of its own people rather than trying to nanny everyone else. I personally wouldn't mind it it this country did as much for its poor people that the U.S. does for the poor in other countries.

And what you fail to realize is that the government, though elected by the people sometimes does whatever the hell it wants when in office, and it is not always representative of the people. There are quite a few Americans like myself who are tired of our country getting involved in other countries shit when things aren't exactly smelling like roses on our side of the fence.

However, I do understand how it becomes our problem when the people from these fucked up countries are coming over here in droves. That is when you get to the point where the only way to handle your problem is to confront the source.

I am all for helping other countries, But not at the expense of the American people.
 
And it's the same in China...?
Why can't you see, how pro-American
you're still sounding? And they're (the American government) is doing this, out of the
goodness of their hearts, not because they want to use
them later on? And can't you get the Chinese government is doing the exact same thing as America with it's citizens.

And even you as an African-American, is falling for it.

And oh, about your education point... that's a very weak one. Since no Chinese person is illiterate eh? And must go to
school to learn Mandarin? Even a non-Chinese eh? As opposed to Canada's policy or the US's on this (let them go learn French or
English if they want only...)

And a non-Chinese person in China can speak Mandarin and their mother tongue too.

A question to you, is it anyone else's business what you're going through? No. So America or any Western countries
shouldn't make it their business either.


And you should know something else... the riots started because of a British in the 18th century, because Tibetans
lived amongst Chinese and with them peacefully before and and there are historical records about this. So it's British's fault for this and for many other
things such like these (India, Russia).

You Westerners, are only making it worse (Isreal-Arab lands, Iran-Iraq, Egypt, even Africa, Greek-Whites/Turks etc) for other non-Western countries and people.
 
It is obvious that context was not your strong suit in school.

So let's try this again, what I am saying here is that, assuming that you are right that I have been brainwashed by democracy, education and the news, why don't you for the sake of argument, enlighten me on what it is you think I got wrong about China.

You are arguing in favor of China and the things that happen there, so why don't you enlighten me on why you think that this is a good thing.

What is it that you think I have gotten wrong about China?

Again, reread my post. I have said that I quite frankly don't care about China, and most people here probably feel the same way, but for whatever reason, most likely because of their own interests, the gov't gets involved in other countries shit, when we have a lot of our own shit to clean up. So stop acting as if the people always agree with everything the government does.

I don't give 2 flying fucks about China, let alone 1, however, I don't mind the U.S. helping people in other countries, just as long as they put in as much effort into helping their own.

And I am probably the least Pro-American person I know.. because I dont always agree with everything this country does or the way the government does things. This is why I say that I am a New Yorker first, because my sense of loyalty to my state is greater than that of my country.

A pro-american person would argue that no matter what, America is right and the best in everything and that the shit don't stink over here and that is not who I am because that is not what I believe. I believe that while this country is still a work in progress, and could be better, that it could definitely be worse and even with its flaws, it is still better than some other places.

But I wouldn't expect someone like you to get that. You say that I am Pro-American because you are to Pro-Chinese/Pro-Asian to be open-minded about this or anything else.

Anyone who disagrees with you is Pro-American or a Westerner.

With the way you come off in these threads, I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly supported the Holocaust if turned out that Hitler was Asian and wanted to destroy anyone who wasn't.

I am not saying that you are, but that is the way you come off.
 
Here comes the White man!!!!

One Child Policy and Gender-based abortions is utterly absurd and countries that enforce that have murderous tendencies due to forcing abortions of unborn-life (I generally don't agree with abortion, but i'll never argue against it since i'm a bloke and will never know what it is like). But anyone that agrees with gender-based abortions are not fit to have children themselves.

In the West governments might be shit at most things, but we don't have one child policies and we don't enforce abortions because of the sex of the unborn child.
 
No, anyone whom blindly sees Westerners as Saints/Heroes
is pro-Western and the Western way of doing thing is pro-
Western.

And yes, do you care to know what White Europeans did to my ancestors' home? Divided it and destroyed like what they're doing
now with it (around the 18th century).

China was a great Empire for millenia and people living in peace with each other... and a rich and
fertile land. (France, Italy, Germany, England, Greece...)
together invaded my people's lands and humiliated Chinese
people for centuries and centuries and took what belonged
to my people and enslaved them just like what they're going to Tibetans and treat them like animals and slaves, without China fighting off Western invasion.
 
You hate the West so much yet you live in the West..... it's odd.

You claim Black Angel as being Pro-Western and make it sound like it is a bad thing, yet you are Pro-China and Pro-Asian.

You keep making these debates about Western affects on Asia yet you make these debates in Western communities and then get upset when everyone disagrees with you because the majority of them are Westerners.

All the hypocrisy from the other thread has spilled over.....
 
Oh, it's not a bad thing or even upset (I may have sounded such yes, but I'm not, just stating some historical facts that you Westerners' seem to forget in your history with the Chinese and you seem to love picking my country as a
spagecoat... ), just saying it's a biased way to look at things in China or a one-sided view on the Chinese.

I never did claim she was (I did say she sounded like one... read carefully before replying

What? Am I not allowed to speak for my country or for
my people now...? (I can't be pro-China
since I'm Chinese and will be de facto, on my own country's side, and that's being patriotic, and you're sounding
very silly to say that.)

No, what I'm not getting is why Black is defending American when she's African herself (or looking African) and she did argue like a pro-American.

And Gamer, that's the usual c****/b***** you Westerners say about my Motherland in your news (about how China's wanting to expand and take over the world).

Well, I'm saying the U.K and the U.S are wanting to
take over the world by doing this sort of stuff (to other countries and should let them be. And Tibet is just an example of what Westerners are doing to the world (N.Korea, South Korea, Japan-China and etc...)
 
You are so close minded that it is not even funny.

And to correct you yet again, I am not African. I am Black, (African-American) Irish and Native American.

Furthermore, not that I find any shame in being African or of African descent, its not as if I am fresh off the boat and my mom and relatives are back in the Ivory Coast dancing the Mapouka. Most of my family has been here since before the 1800s at least, with some coming over because of the Irish Potato Famine and some coming over during the Slave trade.

There is a lot more to me that is American, Irish and Native than there is of African alone.

If you are going to refer to me, then at least refer to all, instead of just cherry-picking the ones you think reinforce your point.

That would be like me referring to you as French even though you are Chinese-French and are a Canadian. That would mean that the French and the Canadians are also your people, and yet, you decide to cherry pick yet again and focus solely on your Chinese ancestry.

Canadians also descended from the Euorpeans, but Canadians are about as different from Europeans as Black Americans are from Africans.

You sit up and talk about European and American history and others as if the Chinese were innocent, and is pristine and the standard to which all nations should aspire to. When I am pretty sure that if you go back far enough, Chinese history would be just as fucked up as everyone else's.

The bottomline here is that history is often told by the victors and in all truth, everyone has skeletons in their closet. Seeing as how China has a history of censorship and propaganda, I'd second guess anything that came from the Chinese perspective.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions
 
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